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Aurochs/Byk
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Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 21:19   Aurochs/Byk

Hi everyone


I´m not sure if this forum has a proper place for presentations.
I don´t understand Polish, unfortunately.
I´m writing from Portugal, and I´m visiting this site because it caught my attention, this forum name (Jaktorow) and the iconic aurochs image that you can see on the top of this page.
I know something about the history of this place (Jaktorow), regarding the last population of the aurochs, the mythical but true living wild bull.
This is an emotional subject to me, because it has been a dream to see this animal back.
Lots of attempts were done to ressurect it but none was sucessfull, because people didn´t analyzed aurochs fossils, phenotypes, historical descriptions and genetics. Some people did even crossbreed cattle, but again with no practical results.
I was asked to look for primitive cattle in the mountains of the North of my country for a conservation project, but I did found more than that: some very rare animals, were very close to aurochs, at the point, that some individuals could be expected to be found among aurochs known variations (coat color, horn size, angle and growing direction, body size, shape and proportions).
I did read that some of the last European aurochsen were so few, that they started to become small. I have seen the last aurochs bull horn from Poland and I got a surprise with its small size.
I think that this is the result of living in a small population and because they lived mainly only on one forest (Jaktorow). Like I have seen with red deers, ungulates get small when live like this.

Only very few farmers own these animals (they aren´t a result of crossbreeding), here are some pictures of them:



Young bull (he weighed around 2000 lbs when this picture was taken).



Adult cow



Young bull

[hr]

Young bull




Cow (picture taken from an hill)


[hr]

Cow




Cow


[hr]

Young bull (a bit lighter variant)




Cow


[hr]

Bull calf




Cows




Pregnant cows.




Cow


[hr]

Cow


I have also found that nearby exists a cattle with these features (lighter coat color and more upward horns):



Cow



Young bull




Young bull (maybe around 3 years old).




Bull.


[hr]

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Big bull




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Cow


I hope that you enjoy it!
They are highly endangered, are shy cattle that can live in very rustic conditions (some populations actually share their range with wolves), that tolerate snow, and can eat lots of wild plants.
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Uro 2013-06-23, 22:57, w całości zmieniany 2 razy  
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 21:46   



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True horns (but with painted skull).





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Young bull




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Young bull



Bull




Cow of another breed




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Young bull.





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Bulls.



Maikop figure of a bull found in Northern Caucasus (3 rd millenium BC), compared with the bull above.


I don´t know how big is this bull (he´s lowering his head), but he looks to be a good bull, like they were used to be on the past:



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This breed was used to be way bigger than it is today, just about a century ago.
Mainly because this breed was replaced on the field by machines and couldn´t compete with other more domesticated breeds, on the alternative «humanized» productive tasks of meat and milk mass production.
This breed has a slower growth (like other primitive breeds), so it did got rarer and rarer, and the interest for the biggest individuals did disappeared.
But there are still some remnants of the past like this bull.
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Uro 2013-07-07, 04:56, w całości zmieniany 2 razy  
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 21:47   



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Bull head
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Uro 2013-06-23, 21:51, w całości zmieniany 1 raz  
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 21:47   



Very young bull. Poor guy.
The red part on the horns is natural.
In many bulls of this breed, it appears that color there.
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 22:12   

These animals were released during last winter on a natural reserve:








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Cow





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cow







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Cows




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Bull calf.






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Now the complete picture.

All young animals: 2 cows and one young bull.


Picture taken from an elevated place.




Iberian aurochs skull found deposited on a ground hole.
It can be either a young bull or a cow.
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-23, 22:33   

In aurochs, the angle of the horn growing direction did usually varied from 50 to 70 degrees (average 60), compared with the skull.
The cows did had a lighter color than bulls and their horns usually were higher in position to the skull.





Cow and calf, in a Netherlands reserve.
Cattle arrived there last April.
 
 
maam


Dołączył: 05 Paź 2009
Posty: 816
Wysłany: 2013-06-24, 12:09   

Thank for your effort, I enjoyed watching the photos - the animals are really similar to the original aurochs we can see in old pictures!
Now in Jaktorow we only have a memorial of the aurochs, which (the last cow) died here in 1627.



As you probably know, there are institutions trying to recreate the species, like The Institute of Biochemistry and Biotechnology of Agricultural University in Poznan, and Polish Foundation for Aurochs Recreation https://www.facebook.com/...OdtworzeniaTura .
We hope they'll succeed :)
_________________
http://www.rodzinneczytanie.pl/
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-25, 21:15   

Many thanks for your reply!
I remember the sad story about that cow.
Yes, some of those animals are really close, though I think that the animals that are the closest weren´t even photographed (I have studied and worked with only a tiny percentage of the population).
Until now this only have happened naturally on this breed (as far as I know).
For the herds that I have visited, there are some phenotype matches scoring about 100%, though they are extremely rare. I had the luck to be close to some of those animals and I hope that someday they´ll be not only here, but in some more countries (apart from Netherlands, Spain seems to be interested as well). An UK reserve, have been asking me for all steps that are being taken for their conservation.


I wonder how the Polish Foundation for Aurochs Recreation wants to do breedback the aurochs. Any information? I´ll try to look for it on the web.
If it´s by cloning that would be (very) difficult, according to the data that I have been gathering.
It would be needed several different complete DNA copies. Or if the copies aren´t complete then it would be necessary to join all the scattered pieces.
One interesting thing could be done though, since cattle isn´t genetically very different from aurochs: they could only introduce on the genome the missing parts.
But for that you need to have all the codes complete and you would still need many different copies.
So it´s not easy, and at least, it seems to be nearly impossible to be made within a many decades period.
Actually I wonder if ever it would be possible at all, because to find enough DNA variation is only the first step, then animals have to become alive, reproduce, etc...
Until now only the aurochs mtDNA was sequenced (the easiest) the nuclear part isn´t yet decoded. Only in Europe there are different mtDNA haplogroups: E, P, Q, R, T, etc...
But the good thing to know, is that at least different steps are being taken.

On the meanwhile, it´s really needed to protect these primitive breeds, since some animals are very close to the aurochs and extremely rare.

Ok, finally got time to post the dendrogram results that were once published back in 1998.



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Good to understand the molecular clock (very important, IMO).

Very interesting results (based on true collected samples).
It can be seen how far back the Maronesa breed stems out, and is kept isolated.

Data collected here: «Fernández, A., J.L. Viana, A. Iglesias and L. Sánchez: Genetic variability and phylogenetic relationships between ten native cattle breeds from Galicia and the north of Portugal.»

Of course that more genetic studies are always welcome.
So far, the North African hypothesis about their origin is nearly completely excluded.
This means that their subspecies is more likely Bos primigenius primigenius (though I think that the north african aurochs itself, was probably just a variant of Bos primigenius primigenius). But more genetic studies are about to be done.
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Uro 2013-08-13, 17:24, w całości zmieniany 1 raz  
 
 
maam


Dołączył: 05 Paź 2009
Posty: 816
Wysłany: 2013-06-26, 12:27   

Uro napisał/a:

I wonder how the Polish Foundation for Aurochs Recreation wants to do breedback the aurochs. Any information? I´ll try to look for it on the web.
If it´s by cloning that would be (very) difficult, according to the data that I have been gathering.


Yes, as far as I'm concerned, it would be done by cloning, but, as you say, it's very difficult to collect any "living" samples, as those they have are too old to be used/ to derive any DNA information from them. All that project is like scince-fiction, with emphasis on fiction more than the science, like Jurasic Park. However, fingers crossed, maybe some day we'll see the living aurochs :)
_________________
http://www.rodzinneczytanie.pl/
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-06-27, 17:04   

maam napisał/a:
Uro napisał/a:

I wonder how the Polish Foundation for Aurochs Recreation wants to do breedback the aurochs. Any information? I´ll try to look for it on the web.
If it´s by cloning that would be (very) difficult, according to the data that I have been gathering.


Yes, as far as I'm concerned, it would be done by cloning, but, as you say, it's very difficult to collect any "living" samples, as those they have are too old to be used/ to derive any DNA information from them. All that project is like scince-fiction, with emphasis on fiction more than the science, like Jurasic Park. However, fingers crossed, maybe some day we'll see the living aurochs :)


Thanks for your reply.
Yes, not only the age is a problem but also the fact that DNA degradation is higher and faster in modern Poland (with summer rains (some heat and humidity combined)) than during Ice Age periods or in colder areas, when the permanent ice preserve tissues much better.

And yes, maybe I´m too confident but I´m sure that we´ll see living aurochs back.
It´s just the methodology to backbreed them that can be different.

I have been analyzing skeletal data from different countries and there are already some matches, though it are extremely rare (but not a result of a crossbreeding).


The most important thing is that there are different steps being taken to have them back.
If all the efforts are well done or and at least one reach the goal, that would be enough.
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-07-07, 04:48   

Maronesa:



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Cow




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Young bull with light eel stripe (like it´s normal on bulls of this breed).





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Cow
 
 
Uro

Dołączył: 23 Cze 2013
Posty: 10
Wysłany: 2013-10-23, 15:22   

The good news also is that a cooperation between the True Nature Foundation (http://www.truenaturefoundation.org/) and the Polish project (https://www.facebook.com/PolskaFundacjaOdtworzeniaTura/photos_stream) will be done.
So, some of these breeds that you see on this thread, will be also involved in it.

I honestly think that we are on the right path for the aurochs.




Bull and cow.


There are also news about the aurochs on this section:

http://www.truenaturefoun...foundation-news
 
 
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